Whilst I did state in my last post that there would be no new content on here during the month of July, it appears that I can’t resist talking about our wonderful hobby, especially when I have something I feel I need to share.
So, just over a week ago, I received the very generous and very much appreciated gift of the Doctor Who – Exterminate! miniatures game from Stevie and Hils from The Games Cupboard. As those of you who have tried to give me gifts in the past will know, I’m quite stubborn when it comes to accepting presents – so Stevie and Hils basically didn’t tell me they were doing it until almost the last moment and ignored me when I tried to convince them NOT to do it. Still not entirely sure I deserved such a nice present, but I’ve resigned myself to the fact that I’ve now got the game I was probably going to buy myself anyway…
Whilst I’ve opened the box, enjoyed the smell (it does smell rather wonderful) and read the rules in their entirety, I’ve yet to have the time to play the game. However, I did decide to put together a couple of the figures, just to see how east they were to assemble and to get an idea of how well they scale in with my other figures.
And this is the reason for this post, as I am in the unique position of owning at least one of every Cyberman and Dalek released by different manufacturers since Games Workshop first had the licence way back in 1987. And as there have been various questions asked regarding how well these figures scale in with other miniatures, I thought I’d provide a few pictures to assist in answering this question, followed by my own personal opinion.
First, the Cybermen…
Okay, from left to right we have; a Games Workshop plastic Cyberman (25mm), a Black Tree Design metal Cyber-Controller (28mm), a Doctor Who: Micro Universe new-style Cyberman (God knows) and the Warlord Games plastic Cyberwar Cyberman (32mm?).
Next the Daleks…
So, a GW plastic Dalek, a BTD metal Dalek, a Warlord Games Time War Dalek and a Doctor Who Adventures New Paradigm Dalek. As the Warlord Games Daleks don’t come with bases and their ‘skirt-print’ is too big for a standard 25mm circular base, I’ve not yet decided if I am going to base them or not.
And finally, as the WG figures are both the most recent version of each race, who better to give an idea of scale for those already owning a large collections of 28mm Doctor Who miniatures, than the Twelfth Doctor himself, as depicted by Crooked Dice?
Now you’ve seen the pictures, this should give you an idea of how compatible these Warlord plastics are with your existing figure collection.
Now, for my own personal opinion, which can be summed up in one sentence;
The Cybermen are too big.
Whilst you could rationale away that these represent the most advanced iteration of this species and that essentially a Cyberman is a normal human encased in a metal shell, so it’s bound to be bigger, it still doesn’t alter the fact that the Warlord Games Cyberman stands a good head above a normal 28mm miniature and that’s on a base that’s at least half as thick.
The Daleks, however, are another matter. Even if based on a base the same thickness base as my existing figures, the Time War Dalek would be a little larger than the Black Tree Design ones, but still smaller than the New Paradigm Daleks, which is as it should be. Plus the detail on these figures is excellent.
If you’re new to Doctor Who gaming, with no existing figures in your collection, then there is nothing stopping your from buying those figures produced by Warlord Games, However, if you already have a reasonable collection of 28mm Doctor Who figures, and just want to expand into the newer era of the Whoniverse, I would suggest avoiding the Cybermen, as they really do look too big in my opinion, although they are easier to paint…
I will give my opinion of the actual rules and the game itself once I’ve had a chance to play a couple of games, so there will be plenty more Doctor Who content to come here on the Buffet – and more Daleks! And you can never have enough Daleks!
Carrion Crow's Buffet 
Cor, you lucky blighter!! that was damn decent of the Irish contingent.
Are the Cybermen not that tall in the new series then? They look a bit chunkier than the Microverse ones too (no idea what the Who Microverse is by the way!). You missed a couple out by the way, I have some metal GW (I think) Daleks that are bigger than the plastic ones, and of course you forgot the bl**dy awful Cybermen from Dr Who magazine.
Cheers Roger.
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I am indeed a very lucky little bunny and have the BEST friends. I seem to recall the New Paradigm Daleks were a gift from your good self… 😂
And yes, the new style Cybermen are a bit bigger, but not as big as the Warlord Games ones are in relation to ‘normal’ 28mm miniatures.
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OOoooh I didn`t see this post at all until just now. Interesting about the Cybermen, it must just be us (the DW newbies) but I thought the Cybermen were impressively imposing. We watch tv on a rather large 72 inch lounge TV and on this the Cybermen do look HUGE to us hehe, and I remember thinking (when we opened the game box “ooooooh these look awesome, like 7 foot metal giants.. yummy.”
The Daleks well, they are the first Daleks we have ever owned so are like – over the moon, yeeeey!!! we have our very own DALEKS woohooo!!!!
Your scale article is massively useful I think, as there is indeed a lot of scale debate going round at the moment concerning the new WG DW range. And your article makes it really clear for others to see for themselves.
As for the game itself. hmmmmm, it plays amazingly smoothly, but it does play like a wargame, and leaves me in a little doubt about its faithful representation of an average Doctor Who tv episode, unless it were a very combat oriented and bloody episode. All in all the rules for Exterminate do have a lot of merit, but leaves me doubting its application for more realistic rpg style approach, or variety of genre potential.
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I do like to surprise on occasion and it seemed an appropriate use of my time. I have noted that there has been a lot of discussion regarding scale issues with the Warlord figures and I thought this little article might prove useful to those still undecided.
I massively appreciate your very kind and generous gift and I will be giving the rules a thorough play-testing, but my initial read through of the rules does seem to suggest its primarily a wargame. Not quite what DW fans are looking for to provide an authentic DW adventure, but it will be interesting to see how it plays.
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“All for one, and one for all”
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oh oh OOOH I am so pleased for you Jez. I hoped you’d be able to share in the Doctor Who fun with the rest of the guys, and now you can, good good, goooood. I guess you will put aside the official “Exterminate” rules (after giving them a few goes) and stick with your own “Way of the Crow” which I say, why not. Nothing quite like playing games with rules you`ve made yourself. That`s how the whole hobby was once upon a time, before was born hehe. Oo how I wish I`d have seen those amazing days.
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Thanks Tar. The game was on my ‘wishlist’ so to receive a copy as a gift was a lovely surprise.
I will be giving it a fair shake of the stick, but will also try replaying one or two of the scenarios using WOTC, just to see how they compare.
Can’t really have TOO much Doctor Who, now can we?
And soon you will join us too…😉
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{{{ And soon you will join us too…😉 }}}
You`ll never `upgrade` me Mister. I`m a staunch dubious Who `Bah! humbug` and fiddle-sticks flag wielder.
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Says the girl who’s using ‘Who-isms’ in their reply… carry on denying it, my inevitable victory will be oh so much sweeter… 😉
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***um.. hides all the Daleks and rolls marbles at the Cyberguys***
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………. and how far are you into the DVD series 1 yet? DVD discs are marvellous inventions aren`t they << **grins at you <<**
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erm, well *coughs* almost through the last disc, can I borrow season 2 soon please *goes red**
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Ooooh, you little minx! Publicly declaiming it, yet secretly watching it. Time to confess, I think…
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meeeeeee? But……….i
I`m only watching it to be sociable.
dum-di-dum -di-diddle-di-dum <— hums a little tune to self**
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Oh really? In that case, as you’ve now watched several episodes of the series, perhaps you’d like to give a detailed explanation as to why it’s so terrible? I’m sure we’d all be interested to hear your thoughts on this… 😉
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um.. I`ll give you an answer after watching the remaining 8 series and all the specials and documentary extras.
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No need to go to all that trouble. I’m sure that the episodes you’ve watched will give you enough insight to provide an opinion now.
Unless…the reason you CAN’T is that you’ve found, much to your surprise, that you DO like Doctor Who, but you’re too stubborn to admit that you were wrong and, by extension, I was right. Now, wouldn’t THAT be a turn up for the books.
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If we’re talking about Nu-Who (spit spit!), I’m with you Tarot…I hate it.
Roger.
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>Chuckles<
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What a corking gift from Hils & Steve, Jez, and its great to see it making so much of a positive impact that you’ve immediately taken ‘pen to paper’ to blog about it 🙂
Obviously I’m a little bias as (i) pretty much anything “Doctor Who” is a hit with me, and (ii) “Warlord Games” service/support for “Doctor Who: Exterminate!” has been first rate as far as I have been concerned. But considering that all the miniatures for their “Into The Time Vortex” are 35mm in scale, then I think the Cybermen are spot on scale-wise alongside the rest of the range; just check out the height of the Silents – which are 40mm in height as per their TV appearances.
To my mind your wonderful scale picture actually reminds me how much shorter “Black Tree Designs” Cybermen became after they produced their excellent ‘Tomb Of The Cybermen’ versions. For example, the Cyber-Leader you show, and their “Tenth Planet” Mondasian Cybermen are disappointingly dinky compared to their TV counterparts.
I’ve yet to play “Doctor Who: Exterminate!” using the Doctor & TARDIS crew yet, but have heard he wields his sonic screwdriver like its a hand-gun, so I’m interested in seeing how he works in the rule-set. Plus I’ve had some enormously fun and lengthy conversations with Steve over the “Cubicle 7” “Doctor Who RPG”, and how that makes for a far better “Doctor Who” TV experience – little wonder Hils only said a few words to me over the phone when we first spoke, she’s probably just used to listening to Stevie chat away all day without getting a word in herself 🙂
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the rules when you have time to have a game. Fingers crossed you enjoy it as much as I.
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It doesn’t take much for me to talk about gaming…or Doctor Who.
I’m not knocking the WG figures, I just felt that the Cybermen were too tall in comparison to 28mm figures. As they’re designed to be, it’s not a major isuue for those collecting that particular range, but for those who have a large collection of 28mm DW figures, I thought it might be useful to provide an actual size comparison. That way that they can make an informed decision on whether or not to buy any.
If they’d gone for the previous version, I don’t think I would have found it so jarring, but the most recent Cyberwar version is smaller and slimmer than the Cyber Legion/Cybus Industries version, so they just look too big to me. I’ll still be using them to test the game out, but I have to say I’m not a fan of these particular models.
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I don`t talk THAT much Simon, I distinctly remember hearing you go “uuhhuh!” and murmuring “yes” and “no” from time to time. And I`m sure I hear you snoring at one stage, but you recovered well.
You are right also, the Doctor Who game does have to be played to appreciate its intrinsic beauty. Its sleek simple, and rather elegant in its design. Trouble is, it is designed more as a wargame than as an accurate depiction for recreating episodes from the tv show: BUT this really does not need to be a detriment. This same problem can be levelled at many (perhaps most) other sets of rules out there as well. For example: Pulp Alley, 7TV (either version), Mutants and Death Ray Guns… and especially things like Frostgrave or Judge Dredd D20 all of which are heavily combat oriented, but this has never been a problem for a half decent game host. Rules rarely make or break a game…. a Game Host (or GM) DOES! As any seasoned Games Master knows; whether paying a table top miniatures game such as D&D or Star Wars miniatures, Malifaux or Age of Sigmar… or a rpg like Dungeons and Dragons, Warhammer Fantasy RPG, or Pathfinder, a game is much more than the sum of its parts (which can easily boil down to endless combat hack and slash and endless mayhem): it takes a lot of skill and ability to turn an average game into a GREAT game (and this truism applies throughout the entire hobby); and the more you play, the more smoothly you learn to wield the games master`s tools like Napoleon wielded his beloved cannon. “Exterminate” in its fundamental state is a combat oriented wargame. BUT, like any other game out there, its up to the players, to turn it into more than the sum of its parts…. this is achieved by narrative, story arc, and immersion (I`d almost throw the scenarios that come with the box set away, right from the start, a good Game Host really doesnt need them and can do MUCH better himself. as I really do believe the ones included let the game down badly). Look beyond the `thou shalt nots`…. its not necessarily always about what the rules allow you to do in your games, but by making up the stories (like children do all the time and with natural ease) and creating `make belief` to supplement the rules themselves, this is where DW comes alive. And for that, you can play a great game using any set of rules you choose.
Will I wait for Warlord Games to make all the official stat cards needed to play with everything? Not bloo*y likely no. I`ve never worried about stat cards needing to look perfect, that`s just silly, and OCD to the extreme (like not being able to play with unpainted miniatures, which is absurd). No, I will use the cards provided and make my own up for all and any additional creature, alien, npc, or hero I want to include into my games (many of them home sculpted or converted for my personal use). The stat cards will be drawn on paper (just like you do when creating a character in D&D) and stored in my file box for later use. I probably wont even bother using the official stats for any future releases, unless I like how they read… D&D is like that too (or was once), and so yeah….. “Exterminate” is a great little game. I`ve personally played it lots at this stage, and have umpired (been the DM) for many more, as it is played LOTS here our local club(s), at least a half a dozen games a night, and Hils and I play lots of private games at home as well (to get intimately familiar with the system) and we believe that COMBINED with Cubicle 7`s RPG I am expecting “Exterminate” will become an awesome experience. But for now (until I actually have my hot sticks on a copy) I am having a ball just using “Exterminate!”
It not a perfect system, but nor is D&D, Pathfinder, Zombicide, Frostgrave, Bolt Action, or may other games that I love to play. But this has never stopped me having an absolute blast. Play play, play! That`s the key.
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Whilst I’ve only read the rules (including the ‘supplementary’ rules on the cards) so far, I think its fair to say that this isn’t a Doctor Who miniatures game, but a wargame set in the Doctor Who universe. The stats assigned to each character or race reflect this, as you’ve only got abilities relating to moving and fighting. To enable any sort of narrative game to be played, you’re going to have to add some mental attributes of some kind. But then again, whilst it does try to pretend to be the ONLY game you need to be able to play DW in miniature, its pretty obvious that it was designed to be a wargame.
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Having had a dialogue with both the author of “Doctor Who: Exterminate!” and the games publicist, I think the popularity of the minis range has really caught them off-guard; surprisingly so tbh, because I’d have bet my mortgage on an official range selling really well. The official stance to their 35mm scale, is that its a collectors range first and foremost, and a game second (quite a long way second too in many respects). But whatever the reason I entirely agree with Jez that the range doesn’t work terribly well with the smaller scale ranges of yesteryear. It also seems to be very battle focused. But as I’ve yet to play as the Doctor etc I’ll wait until I’ve done so before committing myself to a particular side in that argument 🙂
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I believe you are absolutely correct Simon. The DW miniatures (and the entire BBC franchise) seems to have been considered as part of the `collectors` hobby, indeed the BBC tend still to think of collectable miniatures (like BBC toys and the Star Wars Kenner Action Figures) when they release the rights to their merchandise. Never did it register in their psyche that the miniatures would be greatly desirous to table top gamers: and indeed Warlord Games themselves desperately underestimated (and to my mind, undervalued) the notion of the `rules` ever being anything other than a basic wargame between Daleks and Cybermen, to drive sales of the boxed set – with some latter half heated attempts at tying in additional figure stats, when and when they are made: but it feels like this is more of a pain for them, a sort of “yawn yawn” mentality, more then am essential prerequisite focus. I am at a loss what to say here really. It fear that it feels like “Terminator Genisys” all over again, a lovely game which sold for £75 but was poorly marketed and advertised, and quickly reduced to £35, and almost all supporting material for it cancelled and remaining stocks left to dwindle and dry up entirely. I just PRAY “Test of Honour” doesn’t go the same way.
What do I think of “Exterminate” I think it has the potential to be a great game. Will Warlord Support it properly…. I guess this remains to be seen? I HOPE so, I really do. I worry that it will see the release of some packs of miniatures (which lets face it, arent always the cheapest.. the moment you move away from their plastics range) and as sales dwindle due to lack of adequate coverage, WG will follow their usual trend of dropping the product like a stone, and moving on to their new next best thing. I LOVE Warlord, I LOVE the staff, I know the guys as personal friends, but I am simply not a blind fan boy of anyone (never have been). And I see things here which worry me deeply. I do hope I am wrong.
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Whilst this attitude to collectors versus gamers can be understood by the BBC, who are happy to sell the licence for their properties to whoever is prepared to pay, it does strike me as odd that a company such as Warlord Games would folow suit. They were quick enough to clamp down on ‘unofficial’ figures and games, but whilst they are releasing a fair few figures, they’re definitely not geared towards those who want to PLAY. If you look at the rules, they list Sontaran weapons and UNIT weapons and also include abilities that are specifically associated with the Weeping Angels. This would suggest that these ‘factions’ were considered to be potential future releases for the game. But we got Tetraps, Clockwork Droids, Sea Devils and Vashta Nerada – all without cards enabling you to field them. Surely boxed sets of plastic Sontarans and UNIT would have made more sense, both from a gaming perspective and a Who perspective, as these ‘factions’ have clashed? The choice of ‘monsters’ being released seems to be based on someone’s list of favourite creatures, rather than on what the general consensus of what the best Who monsters are.
Currently, it appears that this is a vanity project for someone high up at Warlord Games, who is dictating what gets made, rather than catering to the legions of Who fans who are also gamers. As they ARE a games company rather than a producer of collectibles, surely they should be concentrating on making the best Doctor Who miniatures game? A collector will buy one box of figures, but a gamer will buy as many as he or she needs to field the force they want. AND their opponents. Simple logic dictates that you’ll get more money from a gamer than a collector.
I guess we’ll have to wait and see if they turn it around, but it needs to be sooner rather than later, otherwise they will have squandered a particularly lucrative licence.
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Though I agree in principle with what you say Jez, I would also add that while a collector will happily pay silly money for a one off figure a gamer often will not, something you yourself have proclaimed on numerous occasions, and as we all know it’s a lot more cost effective to get a sculptor to sculpt one figure and charge a tenner for it, than it is to pay the same sculptor twice as much to sculpt/ convert five figures and charge ten pounds for the five. Simple maths.
Though producing plastic figures is ridiculously cheap (the fig’s in the Exterminate box game probably cost less than ten pence to produce), the set up costs for tooling etc.. are horrendous.
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Bottom line for me really, in `this day and age` ( strange expression that, which really means absolutely nothing), its like buying a tin of baked beans. Now, I happen to like baked beans, and don`t mind paying for a decent tin… 50 to 70p. Even the cheap ones are… what…. 30p a tin?
Know how much (after costs, wages, packaging, shipping, etc at 65p tin of Bachelors baked beans actually costs the company….. its actually 2 point 1 pence (2.1p). Yep, the rest is all profit. When (on average per annum) Bachelors sell over 7.5 billions tins a year, its no wonder their costs are so low and their mark up so high. Knowing this, do I refuse to eat them, naaaaa cause not. And I wont even go into the price and profit on cigarettes, or tea bags…. or coffee!!!!
They sell what I want, I`m happy to buy the items they offer, I get satisfied… they get very rich, its how it works.. LOL.
As for Warlord Games. I think all in all, this whole symbiosis of seller and customer works in a similar way. They sell what I want, and at the prices they charge for their wares.. I am very happy to meet that price. Overall, I find them to be one of the better companies out there.
Plus they offer something else (at no extra charge). Friendly staff. Helpful advice (I`ve been on the phone to staff members for an hour at a time before, and they have gone over the top to offer help… colour schemes, painting tips, shedule updates on forthcoming wares, and just a good chat even etc etc). They follow up on problems, and ring back or email to ensure the customer problem is resolved. They have never hassled me on replacements, and always replace swiftly (often adding in extras as a way of apology) And all in all, I think they are possibly one of THE best companies out there.
That`s my tuppence worth anyway.
:-))
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“That`s my tuppence worth anyway.”
Ahh but are you charging 70p for it Steve! 😉
Roger.
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heheheheheheheee **grins**
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